Socrates Soc. so that one can be pretty sure that those people are the richest of the Greeks in gold and silver, and that among themselves the richest is the king; for the largest and most numerous receipts of the kind are those of the kings, 123band besides there is the levy of the royal tribute in no slight amount, which the Spartans pay to their kings. Now, the Spartan fortunes, though great compared with the wealth of other Greeks, are nought beside that of the Persians and their king. For I myself was once told by a trustworthy person, who had been up to their court, that he traversed a very large tract of excellent land, nearly a day’s journey, which the inhabitants called the girdle of the king’s wife, and another which was similarly called her veil; 123cand many other fine and fertile regions reserved for the adornment of the consort; and each of these regions was named after some part of her apparel. So I imagine, if someone should say to the king’s mother Amestris, who was wife of Xerxes, “The son of Deinomache ¹ intends to challenge your son; the mother’s dresses are worth perhaps fifty minae at the outside, while the son has under three hundred acres at Erchiae, ²” she would wonder to what on earth this 123dAlcibiades could be trusting, that he proposed to contend against Artaxerxes; and I expect she would remark—“The only possible things that the man can be trusting to for his enterprise are industry and wisdom; for these are the only things of any account among the Greeks.” Whereas if she were informed that this Alcibiades who is actually making such an attempt is, in the first place, as yet barely twenty years old, and secondly, altogether uneducated; and further, that when his lover tells him that he must first learn, and take pains over himself, and practise, 123ebefore he enters on a contest with the king, he refuses, and says he will do very well as he is; I expect she would ask in surprise, “On what, then, can the youngster rely?” And if we told her, “On beauty, stature, birth, wealth, and mental gifts,” she would conclude we were mad, Alcibiades, when she compared the advantages of her own people in all these respects.

Soc. And I imagine that even Lampido, daughter of Leotychides 124aand wife of Archidamus and mother of Agis, who have all been kings, would wonder in the same way, when she compared her people’s resources, at your intention of having a contest with her son despite your bad upbringing. And yet, does it not strike you as disgraceful that our enemies’ wives should have a better idea of the qualities that we need for an attempt against them than we have ourselves? Ah, my remarkable friend, listen to me and the Delphic motto, 124b “Know thyself”; for these people are our competitors, not those whom you think; and there is nothing that will give us ascendancy over them save only pains and skill. If you are found wanting in these, you will be found wanting also in achievement of renown among Greeks and barbarians both; and of this I observe you to be more enamored than anyone else ever was of anything.

Alcibiades Alc. Well then, what are the pains that I must take, Socrates? Can you enlighten me? For I must say your words are remarkably like the truth.

Socrates Soc. Yes, I can: but we must put our heads together, ³ you know, as to the way in which 124cwe can improve ourselves to the utmost. For observe that when I speak of the need of being educated I am not referring only to you, apart from myself; since my case is identical with yours except in one point.

Alcibiades Alc. What is that ?

Socrates Soc. My guardian is better and wiser than your one, Pericles.

Alcibiades Alc. Who is he, Socrates?

Socrates Soc. God, Alcibiades, who until this day would not let me converse with you; and trusting in him I say that through no other man but me will you attain to eminence.

Alcibiades Alc. You are jesting, Socrates.

Socrates Soc. Perhaps; I am right, however, in saying that we need to take pains—all men rather badly, but we two very badly indeed.

Alcibiades Alc. As to me, you are not wrong.

Socrates Soc. Nor, I fear, as to myself either.

Alcibiades Alc. Then what can we do?

Socrates Soc. There must be no crying off or skulking, my good friend.

Alcibiades Alc. No, for that would indeed be unseemly, Socrates.

Socrates Soc. It would; so let us consider in common. Now tell me: 124ewe say, do we not, that we wish to be as good as possible?

Alcibiades Alc. Yes.

Socrates Soc. In what excellence?

Alcibiades Alc. Clearly that which is the aim of good men.

Socrates Soc. Good in what?

Alcibiades Alc. Clearly, good in the management of affairs.

Socrates Soc. What sort of affairs? Horsemanship?

Alcibiades Alc. No, no.

Socrates Soc. Because we should apply to horsemen?

Alcibiades Alc. Yes.

Socrates Soc. Well, seamanship, do you mean?

Alcibiades Alc. No.

Socrates Soc. Because we should apply to seamen?

Alcibiades Alc. Yes.

Socrates Soc. Well, what sort of thing? The business of what men?

Alcibiades Alc. Of Athenian gentlemen.

Socrates Soc. Do you mean by “gentlemen” the intelligent or the unintelligent?

Alcibiades Alc. The intelligent.

Socrates Soc. And everyone is good in that wherein he is intelligent?

Alcibiades Alc. Yes.

Socrates Soc. And bad wherein he is unintelligent?

Alcibiades Alc. Of course.

Socrates Soc. Then is the shoemaker intelligent in the making of foot-gear?

Alcibiades Alc. Certainly.

Socrates Soc. So he is good in that article?

Alcibiades Alc. Good.

Socrates Soc. Well now, is not the shoemaker unintelligent in the making of clothes?

Alcibiades Alc. Yes.

Socrates Soc. So he is bad in that?

Alcibiades Alc. Yes.

Socrates Soc. Then, on this showing, the same man is both bad and good.

Alcibiades Alc. Apparently.

Socrates Soc. Well, can you say that good men are also bad?

Alcibiades Alc. No, indeed.

Socrates Soc. But whoever do you mean by the good?

Alcibiades Alc. I mean those who are able to rule in the city.

Socrates Soc. Not, I presume, over horses?

Alcibiades Alc. No, no.

Socrates Soc. But over men?

Alcibiades Alc. Yes.

Socrates Soc. When they are sick?

Alcibiades Alc. No.

Socrates Soc. Or at sea?

Alcibiades Alc. I say, no.

Socrates Soc. Or harvesting?

Alcibiades Alc. No.

Socrates Soc. Doing nothing, or doing something?

Alcibiades Alc. Doing something, I say.

Socrates Soc. Doing what? Try and let me know.

Alcibiades Alc. Well, men who do business with each other and make use of one another, as is our way of life in our cities.

Socrates Soc. Then you speak of ruling over men who make use of men?

Alcibiades Alc. Yes.

Socrates Soc. Over boatswains who make use of rowers?

Alcibiades Alc. No, no.

Socrates Soc. Because that is the pilot’s distinction?

Alcibiades Alc. Yes.

Socrates Soc. Well, do you mean ruling over men who are flute-players, 125dand who lead the singing and make use of dancers?

Alcibiades Alc. No, no.

Socrates Soc. Because, again, that is the chorus-teacher’s function?

Alcibiades Alc. To be sure.

Socrates Soc. But whatever do you mean by being able to rule over men who make use of men?

Alcibiades Alc. I mean ruling over men in the city who share in it as fellow-citizens, and do business with each other.

Socrates Soc. Well, what art is this? Suppose I should ask you over again, as I did just now, what art makes men know how to rule over fellow-sailors?

Alcibiades Alc. The pilot’s.

Socrates Soc. And what knowledge—to repeat what was said a moment ago—makes them rule over their fellow-singers?

Alcibiades Alc. That which you just mentioned, the chorus-teacher’s.

Socrates Soc. Well now, what do you call the knowledge of one’s fellow-citizens?

Alcibiades Alc. Good counsel, I should say, Socrates.

Socrates Soc. Well, and is the pilot’s knowledge evil counsel?

Alcibiades Alc. No, no.

Socrates Soc. Rather good counsel?

Alcibiades Alc. So I should think, for the preservation of his passengers.

Socrates Soc. Quite right. And now, for what is the good counsel of which you speak?

Alcibiades Alc. For the better management and preservation of the city.

Socrates Soc. And what is it that becomes present or absent when we get this better management and preservation? If, for example, you should ask me, “What is it that becomes present or absent when the body is better managed and preserved?”—I should reply, “Health becomes present, and disease absent.” Do not you think so too?

Alcibiades Alc. Yes.

Socrates Soc. And if, again, you asked me, “What becomes present in a better condition of the eyes?”—I should answer in just the same way, “Sight becomes present, and blindness absent.” So, in the case of the ears, deafness is caused to be absent, and hearing to be present, when they are improved and getting better treatment.

Alcibiades Alc. Correct.

Socrates Soc. Well then, what is it that becomes present or absent when a state is improved and has better treatment and management?

Alcibiades Alc. To my mind, Socrates, friendship with one another will be there, while hatred and faction will be absent.

Socrates Soc. Now, by friendship do you mean agreement or disagreement?

Alcibiades Alc. Agreement.

Socrates Soc. And what art is it that causes states to agree about numbers?

Alcibiades Alc. Arithmetic.

Socrates Soc. And what of individuals? Is it not the same art?

Alcibiades Alc. Yes.

Socrates Soc. And it makes each single person agree with himself?

Alcibiades Alc. Yes.

Socrates Soc. And what art makes each of us agree with himself 126das to which is the longer, a span or a cubit? Is it not mensuration?

Alcibiades Alc. Of course.

Socrates Soc. And it makes both individuals and states agree with each other?

Alcibiades Alc. Yes.

Socrates Soc. And what about the balance? Is it not the same here too?

Alcibiades Alc. It is.

Socrates Soc. Then what is that agreement of which you speak, and about what? And what art secures it? And is it the same in an individual as in a state, when one agrees with oneself and with another?

Alcibiades Alc. Most likely.

Socrates Soc. Well, what is it? Do not flag in your answers, 126ebut do your best to tell me.

Alcibiades Alc. I suppose I mean the friendship and agreement that you find when a father and mother love their son, and between brother and brother, and husband and wife.

Socrates Soc. Then do you suppose, Alcibiades, that a husband can possibly agree with his wife about woolwork, when he does not understand it, and she does?

Alcibiades Alc. Oh, no.

Socrates Soc. Nor has he any need, since that is a woman’s pursuit.

Alcibiades Alc. Yes.