“To such a city, then, or constitution I apply the terms good and right—and to the corresponding kind of man; but the others I describe as bad and mistaken, if this one is right, in respect both to the administration of states and to the formation of the character of the individual soul, they falling under four forms of badness.” “What are these,” he said. And I was going on to enumerate them in what seemed to me the order of their evolution

from one another, when Polemarchus—he sat at some little distance from Adeimantus—stretched forth his hand, and, taking hold of his garment from above by the shoulder, drew the other toward him and, leaning forward himself, spoke a few words in his ear, of which we overheard nothing else save only this, “Shall we let him off, then,” he said, “or what shall we do?” “By no means,” said Adeimantus, now raising his voice. “What, pray,” said I, “is it that you are not letting off?” “You,”

said he. “And for what reason, pray?” said I. “We think you are a slacker,” he said, “and are trying to cheat us out of a whole division, and that not the least, of the argument to avoid the trouble of expounding it, and expect to “get away with it” by observing thus lightly that, of course, in respect to women and children it is obvious to everybody that the possessions of friends will be in common.” “Well, isn’t that right, Adeimantus?” I said. “Yes,” said he, “but this word “right,” like other things, requires defining as to the way and manner of such a community. There might be many ways. Don’t, then, pass over the one

that you have in mind. For we have long been lying in wait for you, expecting that you would say something both of the procreation of children and their bringing up, and would explain the whole matter of the community of women and children of which you speak. We think that the right or wrong management of this makes a great difference, all the difference in the world, in the constitution of a state;”

Socrates “so now, since you are beginning on another constitution before sufficiently defining this, we are firmly resolved,

Socrates as you overheard, not to let you go till you have expounded all this as fully as you did the rest.” “Set me down, too,” said Glaucon, “as voting this ticket.” “Surely,” said Thrasymachus, “you may consider it a joint resolution of us all, Socrates.”

“What a thing you have done,” said I, “in thus challenging me! What a huge debate you have started afresh, as it were, about this polity, in the supposed completion of which I was rejoicing, being only too glad to have it accepted

as I then set it forth! You don’t realize what a swarm of arguments you are stirring up by this demand, which I foresaw and evaded to save us no end of trouble.” “Well,” said Thrasymachus,“do you suppose this company has come here to prospect for gold and not to listen to discussions?” “Yes,” I said, “in measure.” “Nay, Socrates,” said Glaucon, “the measure of listening to such discussions is the whole of life for reasonable men. So don’t consider us, and do not you yourself grow weary

in explaining to us what we ask or, your views as to how this communion of wives and children among our guardians will be managed, and also about the rearing of the children while still young in the interval between birth and formal schooling which is thought to be the most difficult part of education. Try, then, to tell us what must be the manner of it.” “It is not an easy thing to expound, my dear fellow,” said I, “for even more than the provisions that precede it, it raises many doubts. For one might doubt whether what is proposed is possible and, even conceding the possibility, one might still be sceptical whether it is best.

For which reason one as it were, shrinks from touching on the matter lest the theory be regarded as nothing but a “wish-thought,” my dear friend.” “Do not shrink,” he said, “for your hearers will not be inconsiderate nor distrustful nor hostile.” And I said, “My good fellow, is that remark intended to encourage me?” “It is,” he said. “Well, then,” said I, “it has just the contrary effect. For, if I were confident that I was speaking with knowledge, it would be an excellent encouragement.

For there is both safety and security in speaking the truth with knowledge about our greatest and dearest concerns to those who are both wise and dear.”

Socrates “But to speak when one doubts himself and is seeking while he talks is

Socrates a fearful and slippery venture. The fear is not of being laughed at, for that is childish, but, lest, missing the truth, I fall down and drag my friends with me in matters where it most imports not to stumble. So I salute Nemesis, Glaucon, in what I am about to say. For, indeed, I believe that involuntary homicide is a lesser fault than to mislead opinion about the honorable, the good, and the just. This is a risk that it is better to run with enemies

Socrates than with friends, so that your encouragement is none.” And Glaucon, with a laugh, said, “Nay, Socrates, if any false note in the argument does us any harm, we release you as in a homicide case, and warrant you pure of hand and no deceiver of us. So speak on with confidence.” “Well,” said I, “he who is released in that case is counted pure as the law bids, and, presumably, if there, here too.” “Speak on, then,” he said, “for all this objection.” “We must return then,” said I, “and say now what perhaps ought to have been said in due sequence there.

Socrates But maybe this way is right, that after the completion of the male drama we should in turn go through with the female, especially since you are so urgent.”

“For men, then, born and bred as we described there is in my opinion no other right possession and use of children and women than that which accords with the start we gave them. Our endeavor, I believe, was to establish these men in our discourse as the guardians of a flock?” “Yes.”

“Let us preserve the analogy, then, and assign them a generation and breeding answering to it, and see if it suits us or not.” “In what way?” he said. “In this. Do we expect the females of watch-dogs to join in guarding what the males guard and to hunt with them and share all their pursuits or do we expect the females to stay indoors as being incapacitated by the bearing and the breeding of the whelps while the males toil and have all the care of the flock?” “They have all things in common,”

he replied, “except that we treat the females as weaker and the males as stronger.” “Is it possible, then,” said I, “to employ any creature for the same ends as another if you do not assign it the same nurture and education?” “It is not possible.”

Socrates “If, then, we are to use the women for the same things as the men,

Socrates we must also teach them the same things.” “Yes.” “Now music together with gymnastic was the training we gave the men.” “Yes.” “Then we must assign these two arts to the women also and the offices of war and employ them in the same way.” “It would seem likely from what you say,” he replied. “Perhaps, then,” said I, “the contrast with present custom would make much in our proposals look ridiculous if our words are to be realized in fact.” “Yes, indeed,” he said. “What then,” said I, “is the funniest thing you note in them? Is it not obviously the women exercising unclad in the palestra

Socrates together with the men, not only the young, but even the older, like old men in gymnasiums, when, though wrinkled and unpleasant to look at, they still persist in exercising?” “Yes, on my word,” he replied, “it would seem ridiculous under present conditions.” “Then,” said I, “since we have set out to speak our minds, we must not fear all the jibes with which the wits would greet so great a revolution, and the sort of things they would say about gymnastics

Socrates and culture, and most of all about the bearing of arms and the bestriding of horses.” “You’re right,” he said. “But since we have begun we must go forward to the rough part of our law, after begging these fellows not to mind their own business but to be serious, and reminding them that it is not long since the Greeks thought it disgraceful and ridiculous, as most of the barbarians do now, for men to be seen naked. And when the practice of athletics began, first with the Cretans

Socrates and then with the Lacedaemonians, it was open to the wits of that time to make fun of these practices, don’t you think so?” “I do.” “But when, I take it, experience showed that it is better to strip than to veil all things of this sort, then the laughter of the eyes faded away before that which reason revealed to be best, and this made it plain that he talks idly who deems anything else ridiculous but evil, and who tries to raise a laugh by looking to any other pattern of absurdity than

Socrates that of folly and wrong or sets up any other standard of the beautiful as a mark for his seriousness than the good.” “Most assuredly,” said he.